Tony: 0:03

For the last 26 years, Rachael Geiser has worked in the shadows of America's most notorious trials. As a criminal defense investigator, she stood beside defense teams in cases that shook the country Damian Eccles in the West Memphis Three, Jesse Dotson in the Lester Street case and many more that never made the headlines but changed lives forever. Let's pull back the curtain and hear what really happened. Welcome to Geiser Files Files. Hello, welcome to episode one of Geiser Files Files. I'm very excited. How are you doing, Rachael?

Rachael: 0:38

I'm doing great, Tony. How about you?

Tony: 0:40

Oh, fantastic Thanks. I'm excited to be doing this with you. It's a long time coming right.

Rachael: 0:45

Yes, it is a long time coming. We've talked about this for at least.

Tony: 0:48

For me it's been several years, for you it's been 26.

Rachael: 0:53

That we've talked about this.

Tony: 0:56

I'm kidding. Can I give you my impressions first and why I want to do this? Yeah, I think I've been a big podcast fan for a while now and I keep hearing people talk about stuff that I know my wife knows more than you, right?

Rachael: 1:15

It's a big podcast world, from what I understand. I'm very new to it. I just I mean other than as a mom, I mean my podcast world until recently was all things college admissions. I'm a quasi expert on that, honestly.

Tony: 1:34

Yeah, you really are. You can make a lot of money consulting getting people into elite universities.

Rachael: 1:39

Yeah, I mean, we managed it with two of our children, right?

Tony: 1:43

We did. Our oldest son recently graduated from Vanderbilt University.

Rachael: 1:48

Woo.

Tony: 1:49

Anchor down.

Rachael: 1:50

Anchor down.

Tony: 1:52

Very proud of him. Very proud of him With a degree in computer science. He's now active duty in the Navy defending our nation.

Rachael: 1:59

Yes, we're very, very, very, very proud of him.

Tony: 2:02

Our younger son is Can.

Rachael: 2:04

I say it and then you say it. Our younger son is a student at Princeton University. I was going to say it the Princeton University.

Tony: 2:12

That was a weird pause that you gave.

Rachael: 2:14

Yeah, well, because after anyone says Princeton, what do you say?

Tony: 2:19

Anchor down. I don't know what do I say?

Rachael: 2:21

Maybe you've heard of it, I blew it. How did you do that? You ever heard of it Right, so yeah, so anyway, college admissions yes, we're very proud of him as well.

Tony: 2:42

He's a sophomore doing good stuff At Princeton. It's a little private school in New Jersey. This isn't about that.

Rachael: 2:50

No, I was just saying. My podcast world up until recently was that. And the younger one's also thinking he wants to be a pre-med. So I've been learning all about pre-med and Army and all things Army. He's an Army ROTC, so I know nothing. You're a Marine. Gabe is a.

Tony: 3:08

Sailor.

Rachael: 3:08

Naval officer, and Jacob who went Army. I don't know crap about Army.

Tony: 3:14

Yeah, nobody wants to be a Marine anymore. It's too hard to A little disappointing.

Rachael: 3:18

So much running, so much running, so yeah. So that's until recently. I started listening more to this true crime podcast world True crime. I live it. I live it.

Tony: 3:33

I was going to ask you that's my first question then. Who do you think you are talking about? True crime issues?

Rachael: 3:40

Well, I am a criminal defense investigator. I'm a licensed PI in the state of Tennessee private investigator, but I have spent half of my life over half of my life now doing criminal defense investigations. I work on criminal cases for defense attorneys to get them knowledgeable about the facts of their cases.

Tony: 4:01

Get them knowledgeable about the facts of their cases. So yeah, go into that a little bit. What does a criminal defense investigator do?

Rachael: 4:09

Well, on most of my cases I either get hired by the defense attorney, which isn't that often, or appointed by the courts. In Tennessee. I've worked in Arkansas other places in the southeast, primarily working for defense attorneys to look at their cases. Put together a list of investigative tasks I think needs to be done and then go do it. That involves witness interviews, background research, getting videos, establishing alibis, if there is one.

Tony: 4:43

Videos is a big deal nowadays, right?

Rachael: 4:45

Yeah, it's really changed the whole landscape of investigations, in my opinion.

Tony: 4:52

I see you watching a lot of body cam video.

Rachael: 4:55

Yeah, I watch a lot of body cam. In Memphis with the Memphis Police Department, they started wearing body cam around 2018. Police department they started wearing body cam around 2018. So every case that I get now, we get hours and hours and hours body cam for every officer who was involved in the case, with the exception of homicide. So if a homicide detective still is interviewing a witness, they don't necessarily have to turn their body cam on.

Tony: 5:21

They almost always give us videos of Do you want to hear my body cam impersonation?

Rachael: 5:26

Yeah, just not so loudly in my ear.

Tony: 5:29

Okay, I'm not going to do it then but it's mostly overweight men running through the woods.

Rachael: 5:35

But that's not what happens on the body. Yeah, that is your impression.

Tony: 5:39

That is mostly what it is.

Rachael: 5:40

I don't actually get a lot of running police officers. I get a lot of police officers. All of my cases I should say this all of my cases for the past eight years now have been first-degree murder cases.

Tony: 5:54

First-degree murder cases.

Rachael: 5:55

Yeah, so I'm really no, what makes?

Tony: 5:56

a murder first-degree. Miles of forethought premeditation.

Rachael: 6:01

The state decided to charge them that way. I mean, that's what.

Tony: 6:04

Okay, Well what are in their estimation?

Rachael: 6:08

what makes it first degree A premeditated, you know, murder, something like that.

Tony: 6:12

We'll probably talk about the degrees of murder. How many degrees are there?

Rachael: 6:16

Well, in Tennessee you have first, then second, then voluntary manslaughter, then reckless, then criminally negligent homicide. Those are the levels you could be if you go to trial and you ask the court to include lesser included offenses in the jury instructions. That's what you could get, not always, but you could if the proof played out that way I imagine we'll talk a lot more about stuff like that in future episodes.

Tony: 6:44

You've been a criminal defense investigator for 26 years. How do you get into something like that? How did you get into it?

Rachael: 6:51

Well, try not to make this too boring. So I graduated undergrad from Rhodes College locally in Memphis in 1995 with a degree in political science.

Tony: 7:05

Quick side note yes, do you know who also graduated from Rhodes?

Rachael: 7:12

I do know one famous person.

Tony: 7:15

Current Supreme Court Justice Amy Coney Barrett.

Rachael: 7:18

Yes, Justice Barrett.

Tony: 7:20

You went to school together.

Rachael: 7:21

We did. She graduated a year before me, and I did not know her though.

Tony: 7:27

You didn't know her.

Rachael: 7:27

I did not, unfortunately. That would have been awesome to know her. I mean, she's a US Supreme Court justice. I mean, come on, it's amazing. What an accomplishment. Honestly, I mean talk about someone who I mean, what kind of podcast could she have if she was having a podcast? That would be awesome. Someone who, I mean, what kind of podcast could she have if she was having a podcast? That would be awesome, I'd listen for sure.

Tony: 7:45

Alright, I interrupted you. You went to Rhodes University.

Rachael: 7:50

I went to Rhodes College.

Tony: 7:51

Rhodes College. Thank you, Go Lynx.

Rachael: 7:53

Woohoo, I played basketball there.

Tony: 7:57

You did play basketball there, I did Got that.

Rachael: 8:02

Yes, I did, I played basketball.

Tony: 8:03

You should mention that more often. You went to Rhodes College. You played basketball in the 90s, Graduated with a political science degree.

Rachael: 8:11

Which you can do nothing with Other than go to law school.

Tony: 8:14

I don't know if that's true.

Rachael: 8:17

I didn't want to be apologetic. I don't know what I was thinking. It's so different. When we raised our kids, what did I tell them?

Tony: 8:24

R-O-I Return return on investment. Do something that's going to help you make money.

Rachael: 8:29

That's for the other podcast, though the one about raising kids in college admissions no.

Rachael: 8:35

So after that I moved to Arizona, did undergrad I'm sorry. I took two years off between undergrad and grad school and when I was in Arizona I worked for a behavioral health agency called ComCare and my caseload as a case manager. My caseload was individuals who were charged with crimes who also might suffer from mental illnesses. That got me interested in going to grad school to get a master's in criminology, criminal justice, which I did at the university of memphis, graduated from there in may of 1999 with the math, you call it.

Tony: 9:10

You called it criminology or criminal justice really criminal justice is there a difference?

Rachael: 9:14

I took. Yeah, there is a difference. Uh, interesting. Yeah, we did a lot of theory. There were a lot of theory classes that I took that sounds fun, theory sounds fun I also also took several psychology classes while I was doing my graduate studies as well, which I really liked. Side note, I actually my sister for one of my psychology experience in grad school projects I had to do. She was struggling in algebra and so I did this whole like psychology experiment with her to improve her grade and it did, it worked.

Tony: 9:47

Well, don't keep that a secret. Well, that's not for this podcast.

Rachael: 9:51

right, I have all these other things too. Yeah, I mean, how long is this podcast?

Tony: 10:00

Okay, so that's your education background. You come back to Memphis University of Memphis criminology.

Rachael: 10:09

Go Tigers.

Tony: 10:11

Criminal justice MBA. It's a master's in criminal justice.

Rachael: 10:16

Yes, I did that and I had the intention of working for a federal agency. Specifically, I wanted to work for the FBI. I had a calling. I really, really, really wanted to work on missing children, kidnapping cases. That happened a lot back in the day, like when we were growing up.

Tony: 10:36

I wonder if it still does. We just don't hear about it. You don't hear about it that much. I mean you and I both, we had the whole milk carton thing growing up. Remember that.

Rachael: 10:43

And you and I both talked about it and we've both almost been kidnapped.

Tony: 10:46

I know, isn't that weird? Yeah, we'll tell that's another episode. Yeah.

Rachael: 10:49

But I mean anyway. So that's something I really really wanted to do and I took the psychological exam.

Tony: 10:56

How'd that go?

Rachael: 10:57

They tell me I passed it. I mean, who knows really, but I got shelved because they said they went on a hiring freeze. That might have been a way of letting me down, I don't really know, but they said they were on a hiring freeze.

Tony: 11:07

I would think they don't have much qualms about saying no.

Rachael: 11:11

You think that if they were just like get out of here, they would have said nah, you are not a fit, yeah, yeah. Well, they did not say that to me. They said they were on a hiring freeze.

Tony: 11:19

How much different would your life have been had you gotten into the FBI?

Rachael: 11:26

So much different. I'm sure I wouldn't have stayed here. Most likely initially I would have had to Could have been anywhere in the country, trained, gone to Quantico first right and then trained. And who knows? And then who knows what they would have put me into doing?

Tony: 11:38

Quantico is also where they train Marine Corps officers into doing.

Rachael: 11:43

Quantico is also where they train Marine Corps officers. Did you know that? I did know that. Yeah, gabe actually went to a graduation of his Marine. That's where he went last year. Was it last year I? Think that was yeah, so I didn't know what I was going to do. This is I'm about to graduate. It's April, I think, of 1999.

Rachael: 12:02

And I was waiting tables at a restaurant in Memphis, thought I guess I'll just do that for a little while while I figure this out. You know, and Ron Lacks of Inquisitor Inc was asked by one of my professors, dr Vandiver, to come in and talk about what he does at his private investigation firm Inquisitor. And he did. He came in, spoke about all the things he does surveillance, insurance, investigations otherwise known as subrogation and the criminal defense team that he has. At that time it was really just a few of them. It was Ron doing the fact investigation.

Tony: 12:40

Kind of visionary huh.

Rachael: 12:41

Yeah, no, I mean he really, I got a hand ron.

Tony: 12:45

It didn't end well, which we may or may not talk about later, but I mean, you know, I can't take that away from him.

Rachael: 12:49

I worked there for many years and then left, but ron was a good investigator. He was and he was a good business man, obviously, um, so he made this firm and he had this team. He really his pet project, I think really was working on capital cases. So at that time in tennessee there was the capital resource project which provided resources and funding to investigators to help attorneys on their capital cases. And back then we're talking the early, not in 90s there was a lot of death penalty cases.

Rachael: 13:23

I mean people were noticing for death. Well, attorneys were, attorney generals were noticing for death on all kinds of cases. I remember for a period of time you had to get a lot of capital cases on, you know, felony murders.

Tony: 13:37

Were there more crimes being committed that warranted the death penalty, or were they just more bloodthirsty?

Rachael: 13:45

Oh no, I mean, I would not say that there were more worthy cases back then than there are now. No way, I just think that I think the pendulum swings.

Tony: 13:55

They were more willing to.

Rachael: 13:56

Yeah, I think the pendulum swings to some extent with society's thoughts on the death penalty, like even you can see it. It has in my personal life greatly yeah, right, I mean look at what happened, what's happened in memphis. This is definitely getting off topic, but after the time. So covet happened, right and I remember you know there was a lot of crime. Remember there's a lot going on in this house there was a lot of crime in this house yeah no, there wasn't.

Rachael: 14:25

so what are you talking about? But in memphis there was a lot of things happening crime wise in memphis at that time and, um, you know a lot of things happening and then tyree nichols happened, can I?

Tony: 14:41

summarize Tyree Nichols.

Rachael: 14:43

Well, as best you can. I mean, I did not work on Tyree's case.

Tony: 14:47

I got you. I suddenly am drawing a blank. I know that he, oh he walked into a store allegedly Tyree. Yeah, am I wrong?

Rachael: 14:58

Oh no, I'm so wrong. Holy cow, no Tyree. So wrong.

Tony: 15:01

Holy cow, no. Tyree Nichols was well. He was brutally murdered by police officers after a traffic stop. Gone bad.

Rachael: 15:12

Yes, in Memphis Most of it on video, maybe all of it, but I've only watched the segments they put out in the news when they released the video, when DA Morrow did that. But I actually skipped some because during covid there was george floyd first, right, george floyd happened and then everyone like police defunding all this kind of stuff. So there, that happened what a weird time that was weird, yeah.

Rachael: 15:37

And then tyree happened and I actually, after Tyree Nichols' case happened, I actually sat in or volunteered for some sort of informational session that the Department of Justice had with. They wanted to get input from the defense community about police officers and how can we better train police officers to handle or de-escalate situations and they went to people like you yeah, they asked for our input and public defenders and stuff yeah, and so I participated in one of the sessions and I said and getting back to you know body cam stuff.

Rachael: 16:16

I said the best way and I still believe this to train an officer better on how they're portraying themselves in the communities, to have them watch their own body cam. I mean, I've watched enough body cam of officers. I can tell you which officers handle situations better by watching their body cam, obviously. So if I can do that, they should. What have you like? Can you imagine if you were to wear a video around all day long and then go back and see how you interacted with people?

Tony: 16:42

Yeah, I mean, you learn from that, you would think right If I'd had a body cam on as a server or bartender, you know.

Rachael: 16:49

Oh God, we could make money on that, Tony. It would have been horrible.

Tony: 16:53

right, you're hilarious. I can't imagine like that kind of high stress situation that they are often cops are often in, and then uh, yeah, and then you, oh, here's a recording of what might have been the worst day of your life and I've pitched this idea many times.

Rachael: 17:09

Maybe they are watching their own body cam, I have no idea, but I felt like that was the best way to get them to at least open their eyes a little bit to how they are being perceived. You know so. So that happened, and so then Amy Weirich was our DA, and during Amy's tenure you could even have, you could see how the notices for death were dropping off over time. But during the George Floyd, tyree Nichols thing, and then DA Mulroy was elected and he is known as a progressive DA and very anti-death penalty and he noticed for death on two of the first cases that you know, happened after he was elected and then very rarely since.

Rachael: 17:54

But neither one of those individuals that got noticed for death after his election are on death row. They both have since settled their cases Interesting. Yeah, we should have a longer episode on death row.

Tony: 18:02

They both have since settled their cases Interesting. We should have a longer episode about death penalties. I was about to give my opinion on it.

Rachael: 18:09

Yeah, we're getting off topic.

Tony: 18:11

I'll earn the right to give that opinion later. We're talking about how you became a criminal defense investigator. Ron Lacks came and got you.

Rachael: 18:18

He did. He gave me the job, so he talked about what he did. He had an opening on his team At that time. It was just Ron Denise who was an attorney, Was it?

Tony: 18:26

because of your affiliation with Ron that you were exposed to maybe the most high-profile case you've ever worked on, right? Is that fair?

Rachael: 18:35

Oh for sure, yeah, that's because of Ron.

Tony: 18:37

What case was?

Rachael: 18:38

that Well. West Memphis 3, damien's case. I worked on Damien Echols' case as his investigator from November of 2005 until well recently. I still you know do what's asked of me when they need something. If I can help out, I definitely do Try to.

Tony: 18:56

Yeah, because most of the work they would need is in this area. Right yeah sometimes. And who else would they get to do that?

Rachael: 19:02

Yeah, I mean mean they reach out to me. Of course they've used other people as well. I think there have been other investigators and jason has his own investigators. I'm not sure if dan stidham has or jesse has used anyone. I know it well in the in recent years. I should say um, I know on jason's case there was a man named john Harden who worked very hard. He was a nice guy. I like John.

Rachael: 19:25

Yeah. So yeah, there's been a lot of people, there's been a lot of collaboration. There's some things I do know, some things I don't, and I've had just a lot of experiences. And growing that happened, I mean think about it. I came on that case in 2005. Growing that happened, I mean think about it I came on that case in 2005 what year, is it right now?

Rachael: 19:51

20, 25, yeah, that's 20 years of being exposed to a lot of highs and lows. On that one, well, on that one, yes, for sure, and on, and it ended on a high note, obviously, when they were released, um, but yeah, along the way, and even during that time period when you know the Damian, jason and Jessen were released, I had all these other things going on as well. Just another high profile case I worked Jesse Dodson. Um, he had actually gone to death row, um, sentenced to death, to die six times over. So that was not fun and um.

Tony: 20:21

So, yeah, a lot of highs and lows, for sure wow, yeah, some of it's hard to talk about, but, um, I think it's important that you do. You've said, uh, 26 years, 20 years on the west memphis three, you've never. You've done some interviews and stuff for other people's projects, but you've never done your own.

Rachael: 20:42

I've never done my own project, never written my own book, never written an article.

Tony: 20:47

Why now I?

Rachael: 20:48

have lots of thoughts about it.

Tony: 20:49

Why didn't you? Why now? Why wait until now?

Rachael: 20:54

Well, I think it's probably a lot of reasons that came into it. I don't think I had the bandwidth to even contemplate doing telling anything about my experiences with any case until now. I mean, I'm 52. Our kids are grown and I still think this. But these clients' stories Damien's story, jesse's story they are their stories. That is their story to tell. I think I'm finally starting to learn that I did play a part, obviously, in what's happened.

Tony: 21:33

I think a big part Bad for.

Rachael: 21:35

Jesse, honestly Good for Damien and that part of my part of the story I can tell and I can own and there is merit in it for other people to hear.

Tony: 21:49

Yeah, I get what you're saying about it being you know. So let's say Damien, right, if he's going to talk about what it's like to be a prisoner and to be locked in the same four foot by four foot room for 18 years. You know that's. You know you shut up and listen, right when he talks about that. But you know handling all the information, you know collating that and pulling the signal out of the noise. Right, you have a lot of authority to speak on stuff like that.

Rachael: 22:27

Yes, my experiences are my own and for the longest time I didn't own them and I know you hate that. You hate when I say experiences.

Tony: 22:36

I don't know, why?

Rachael: 22:36

Why do you hate that?

Tony: 22:37

My experiences are my own. No, that's fine.

Rachael: 22:40

I don't hate it, okay, but those are the stories I can tell because that's my perspective, right? It's sort of like it's not uncommon for you and I to talk about something that happened to us, you know, years ago and sometimes I don't even remember it Right and you and to you it was a very important moment and, for whatever reason, that was your perception or something that was meaningful to you, in whatever experience that was for you that I might not even remember.

Rachael: 23:11

Yeah, that happens a lot actually I don't know why that is right, so I think I'm starting to own that part of it.

Tony: 23:17

I don't think you love me very much.

Rachael: 23:21

No, I just think that some things stick better than others, and even for me on cases it's time to talk about it yeah, I think it's time I find myself telling stories to people that's a good sign.

Rachael: 23:37

I find myself wanting to with my friend, glory Shuttles, who also worked on the West Memphis 3 case, and at some point I plan to ask her to be on the show if we make more than one episode right, because she has lots of stories, always has, and so Glory worked on Damien's case when it happened, right. I mean, she and Ron worked together on Damien's case and she had all. She has all these stories about that time period. She has all kinds of stories about all kinds of things that she did and places she went, people she talked to that are just beyond the whodunit. It's not always about the whodunit, it's about the interaction.

Tony: 24:21

What's about the drama? Well, yeah, things that happen to you in the places that you are Whodunit is not all of the drama, right?

Rachael: 24:27

no, no, so um glory, and for years. You know, I met glory when she was in her 40s. She's retired. A few years ago she actually worked with me at the public defender's office for a period of time before she retired. She can't help but tell stories.

Rachael: 24:48

And that's how kind of I always knew her to be, and I find myself doing that, so I don't know if it's something that comes with age or just over time you are starting to see the best way to teach other people around you attorneys, other investigators, clients that you're talking to stories about other things you've done that are somehow relevant to that situation as well. And so I got all these stories. Tony, you want to hear some?

Tony: 25:15

of them. Yeah, I'd like to hear them. Okay, so let's say, we keep doing the podcast and we do one episode, and then we do 10, and then we do 100, right, and it's a huge success.

Rachael: 25:30

Do I have 100 stories? I don't know. Yeah, probably I'll carry the show Okay, thanks. I didn't need that.

Tony: 25:37

What does that mean to you? What is success?

Rachael: 25:41

I think the success would be having people see that what I do for a living as a criminal defense, how I've spent most of my half of my life now is a profession. It's not just a job. This is something that you know comes with experience too.

Rachael: 26:06

You know how to talk to people. I mean, not everybody can just show up to someone's house, knock on the door and ask them to talk about what might be the worst moment of their lives. That is not something that a lot of people can do and you get better at it as you do it more, and some people can never do it. This is a profession. Profession. It is an important part of the criminal justice system. It if you, if you as a defense attorney, you know you have an investigator and they're doing their job and they're doing it well, you will be prepared. And if you're reading the material and you, you know listening to them, they've met with the witnesses, they know the case, they should, and it is important. So, long term, if I were to say how I want to, where I would want to go with this is to talk to other investigators, or even attorneys or clients, if they're allowed their mothers, their family members, if they have questions about their cases and they want some feedback.

Tony: 27:14

I want to lend an ear and Offer advice, yeah, consulting essentially Sure, yeah, free consulting.

Rachael: 27:23

Yeah, I mean this is just a show that we're doing consulting. Yeah, I mean, this is just a show that we're doing and it's something that I feel like I can help with.

Tony: 27:34

I'd like to yeah, I think you're uh really good at there's always hope, right yes there's always something you can do. There's the state has a burden to prove stuff and you're going to make them do it well, there should be a reminder about that right I think I've always been this way.

Rachael: 27:51

I think about when I was in college and I was in um professor pullman's constitutional law class and he was very anti-death penalty. I've always been anti-death penalty and I was raised catholic, I think you know. I don't know if that has anything to do with it, but I've never actually thought that the death penalty was a way to serve justice in any form. So we were in class and he threw out a statistic. I think he said something like at that time maybe there was some study that showed maybe two percent of people who were executed on death row were later found out to be innocent.

Rachael: 28:29

And he threw that out there, made that statement and said what do you guys think about that? And I think it. For me, it took like a few moments to even process what he was saying. Are you kidding me? 2% that is ridiculous. That's crazy. One person for me is too many right. Yeah. And I remember vividly there was someone in the class, a girl, I don't know who it was, but had said something like well, that doesn't seem like a lot, that's fine Holy cow. I almost jumped out of my chair.

Tony: 29:00

Acceptable losses.

Rachael: 29:02

I couldn't believe it, right? I mean, I didn't jump out of my, of course I did not attack this poor girl, but I'm pretty sure I gave her my opinion, though immediately. Yeah, you're good at that I know that about me has not changed. I don't even know if I've calmed down any, since you know college days maybe. So, yeah, I knew. So this was definitely something I should be doing with my life.

Rachael: 29:27

You know. So, yeah, I knew. So this was definitely something I should be doing with my life. I think it's always. The system only works well the way it's supposed to be if everyone is doing their job, and that's from police officers to judges, attorneys, prosecutors, clerks, jail custodians, judges, clerks, jail custodians. You know everyone should. If everyone was doing their job the way it was supposed to be, then we would not have innocent people go to jail or people overcharged, and we you and I both know that doesn't happen. But as long as I play a little bit of part in that to make sure I'm doing my job, then there's a check on some part of the system Right, and I remain that check in some way.

Tony: 30:08

Yeah, I think that's a good reason. Yeah, all right. So that's who you are, that's what you do, we are going to do another episode, do you think? Or no.

Rachael: 30:20

Yeah.

Tony: 30:20

What do you want to talk about in the next one?

Rachael: 30:22

I think in the next episode. Well, I think I should probably just talk a little bit about my introduction. I think people are interested in knowing more about what I did on Damien's case and, to the extent that I can talk about my experiences, I will and I had a lot of interesting times that I can talk about and how I was introduced to the case and then leading up to, obviously, his release, which was an amazing day, so I can talk about that and see if people are interested in hearing about that and see where that goes.

Tony: 30:59

Okay, We'll look forward to that. Thank you for the. I got nothing. We got to come up with some outro thing.

Rachael: 31:07

Yeah.

Tony: 31:09

All right, love, you mean it.

Rachael: 31:10

Love you mean come up with some outro thing. Yeah, all right, love you mean it, love you mean it Bye guys, bye.